Episode 1: "Pivoting Out of COVID-19" with Danny Rosin and Robert Fiveash with Brand Fuel

A lot of revenue streams have dried up due to the COVID-19 situation.  Many businesses have been forced to pivot into a new direction.

Today we are going to discover how one company has found success with new opportunities. 

We will be talking about this with Danny Rosin and Robert Fiveash with Brand Fuel.  They are the leaders of a free-spirited brand merchandising agency that delivers experiences, eCommerce, inspiration, and results - all while having fun along the way.

So, grab a cup of coffee, sit back, and let’s dig into how they are having success in these turbulent times.

Transcript

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Marshall Atkinson: [00:00:00] 

A lot of revenue streams have dried up due to the COVID-19 situation. Many businesses have been forced to pivot into a new direction. Today, we are going to discover how one company has found success with new opportunities. 

We'll be talking about this with Danny Rosen and Robert Fiveash with Brand Fuel.

They're the leaders of a free-spirited brand merchandising agency that delivers experiences, e-commerce, inspiration, and results all while having fun along the way. 

So grab a cup of coffee, sit back, and let's dig into how they're having success in these turbulent times. 

Danny and Robert. Welcome to the show!

Robert Fiveash: [00:00:47] 

Thanks for having us, Marshall.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:00:50] 

All right, you ready to dig in? Let's get going.

Danny Rosen: [00:00:53] 

Giddy up.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:00:54] 

Right. So first off, I want to talk about Brand Fuel, just to give some background on your business. So let's describe your partnership, unique viewpoint, and what you are known for best.

Danny Rosen: [00:01:06] 

Yeah, I'll start with the origin story.

It started a little bit before Robert and I connected, and I think like so many others, it started when I was in college. My parents taught me a lesson about having to cover my out-of-state college tuition while I went to UNC-Chapel Hill. And I think if you look really far back, you can say that my love for that university and my hatred for the university right down the road, Duke university, manifested itself in what Brand Fuel is today, to some extent.

But, because I had to cover, the college tuition gap, I was out selling anti-Duke t-shirts door to door at basketball games, and you know, running from campus security.  Building a little salesforce, navigating design, juggling all the inventory, and crazy that we all know about in this industry. 

I never paid taxes.  I never got my designs licensed by UNC. I don't think I knew any better. 

And, if I did, I, I might not have done that anyway. But, many of the designs that I was selling door to door were probably too raunchy to get approved by the university, anyway.  

And as a side note, they were so bad that someone told me once I had a built-in repeat order system because students' moms would throw their t-shirts away when they came home for breaks and they come back and buy another one.

Anyway, a local printer named Odie Campbell, just a great guy, long hair warmed-over flower child type of guy taught me a lot about the culture, design, and the amazing craft of printing, which I learned when I was, working with him after college. 

So that was my first job.

I started selling to college markets and then into corporations and the corporate markets and Odie and I grew the business a lot, but, my ambition, I think got the best and the worst of me. And after eight years, it became time to have a, what a lot of people would say is an entrepreneurial seizure.

You know, do my own thing, take the high road and leave the company I worked with and help build-up, you know, adhere to the non-compete, leaving a lot of client relationships behind, which was very hard. And I knew I couldn't go it alone successfully. And I desperately needed someone who had a better grasp of finance and operations but also had a really keen eye on sales and marketing. 

And Robert was that guy on so many levels. 

I had just graduated from business school and sort of looking back at our friendship, you know, and, and where we are now, we have a very lucky, a yin yang kind of relationship. 

You know, Ben and Jerry's, Keith and Mick.  You know, we've got a rocket as a logo, so Orville and Wilbur come to mind. 

Our best partnership comparison is probably, Pat Roberson and Mike Cooley. Robert's favorite band. The Drive-By Truckers is a reference there. 

But, after 38 years of friendship and 22 years of those in business together, I'm proud and humbled to say we're still at it and that it's not always easy, but, the history, the love, the respect is very deep-rooted.

And together we set out to be renegades in this commoditized space with a really talented staff who will help us carry the brand into the world with integrity, creativity, hard work, deep knowledge, and, like you said earlier, having some fun along the way. 

And ultimately we found that. With mystery comes margin.

And so doing things differently, takes a lot of work and it's worth it even when we try and we fail. And I think Robert's going to talk a little bit about that...

Robert Fiveash: [00:04:46] 

Man, Danny. That was good. That was very good. Taken me back. Well, Marshall, I wanted to talk just a minute about, Sort of our USP and what we're sort of known for today.

Danny did a fantastic job of a bit of the background. And a lot of that DNA is still with us, whether it's art and music or making sure we're having fun with our employees. You know, I want to point to an early example of something that's kind of stuck with us for the last 22 years. 

We, in 1999, we had the opportunity.  We started in 98 and 99. We had the opportunity to build an online store for one of the largest local companies, Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina. And, we did not know what we're doing.  

We knew that we needed technology for this. We knew it was going to be expensive and we knew the value of an online store.

We knew that that was kind of the future of promo in so many ways. Certainly, you know, for what we were looking to do. And, we built this thing 20 years ago. 

It probably cost us, what Danny $60 grand or so at the time. Yeah. I mean, this was a lot of money for us as a brand new company. The same software today, if it existed with, you know, it'd be $15 a month or something.

I mean, it's ubiquitous now, but it was a real lesson for us that we still sort of live today. And that was investing in technology and making sure that our clients understand that we're as much a technology company as a creative branding company. And so, you know, I think the things that we are most known for would be the creativity and the creative services that we provide.

But also the fact that we're a technology company and that's huge for us. Our online store is kind of the beating heart of our operations. And so a lot of the creative services that we have, you know, whether it's virtual swag or kitting or, or survey fuel or any of these things that we've come up with over the years to broaden our scope, all of these things run through the online store and it's part of what we do and it's part of what our clients expect of us.

So, that is the story there.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:07:13] 

So in reality, I guess the way to put it is that through the years you have built your process, right? 

So that's consistent, it's predictable, it's repeatable. It's the backbone of your company. And, and that is your online store. 

Would you say that's a fair statement?

Robert Fiveash: [00:07:36] 

I would say that's a fair statement.

It's, it's something that's, it's a department that, we have had to invest in throughout. We probably have more people working in the online store department today than we ever have. We've got real professionals that run it rather than, you know, the two of us trying to be at the helm as people who appreciate the technology that are technologists.

We've brought in folks that actually understand the technology and that's been a game-changer for us.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:08:07] 

Over the years, what's been your biggest struggle with that?

Robert Fiveash: [00:08:12] 

Oh gosh. Well, I mean, Danny stepped in at any time, but I would say that the biggest challenge is not the technology piece. It's understanding which opportunities are real.

So, you know, we have really good SEO and we've got folks. Probably two, three, four or five times a week asking us about our online store services. It's actually really, really impressive where we're lucky to have it. And so we have lots of opportunities every week. And the biggest challenge, I think I would say Danny is vetting these in a way that doesn't preoccupy our time with opportunities that might look good on paper, but once you get to the nuts and bolts, it's potentially, several weeks or a month of wasted time where it seemed like a $100, $300, $500,000 opportunity. 

But at the end of the day, it was, you know, potentially a misunderstanding and then we've all, you know, we've all spent the time to try to vet these folks.

I think that's probably the biggest challenge of the online store department is certainly not the technology piece. I guess the second biggest challenge would be the international aspect of it. And that's something that we're really trying to put some focus on, I mean, it's something that's a challenge for every company that does international fulfillment, but, it is something that we've, to be honest with you, we've lost business over, you know, we've had situations with great local clients where we've done pretty much everything perfectly for them.  And then we, we can't manage the international piece of it. 

So I don't think we're that different than other folks that do this. I think any company that is telling you that they can get a product, you know, apparel or what have you from the US to Europe without extra expense or extra stress is probably not really telling you the truth, but it is something that we're putting a lot of focus on today.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:10:12] 

Okay. And what's really unique. And Danny helped me out here. You guys operate in two completely different States, right?

Danny Rosen: [00:10:22] 

We do. We do. And we've actually got five locations, and even, operations in the UK right now. So that's helping us with that challenge Robert mentioned. So, you know, that made this whole COVID thing a lot easier because we're so used to working remotely and trying to get our teams together.

But yeah, Robert and I started out in the office together, which was amazing and sometimes hard. But I think, you know, this virtual world that we're living in right now, we've actually before COVID happened, he and I would be online, and the virtual world, doing teams or zoom, every day as if we were in each other's office like we were when we started the business.

We could tap each other's shoulders when we had a question. that's a real good idea. I think it's a good takeaway for business partners or where you're trying to connect with folks in the C suite or your department, to leave it on all day long. 

Robert's probably caught me picking my nose a couple of times.  But, you know, I've watched him eat a sandwich, not so gracefully, so there are trade-offs.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:11:27] 

That's great. So this is a good segue into my next question, which is it's really a before and after time. So talk about where things stood pre-pandemic and where things are heading now. 

So what is working best for you guys currently?

Robert Fiveash: [00:11:47] 

Well, Marshall, I'll give a quick description of how things were before, and I don't know whether we were we're at that different than most companies in this industry. 

Things were just booming, you know, before March 15th. 

Everything looked fantastic from our perspective like I mentioned, the SEO, we had kind of perfected that, tweaked it, and we're getting an enormous number of these leads that were, and we were having great success and turning into opportunities.

Our best sales year by far.  We'd been up probably 20% per year for the last three or four years. Very little turnover. I think our average employee at, I think 11 years of tenure with us. 

So, I mean, that was just fantastic on so many levels, really, really good growth and really fantastic opportunities.

Probably the biggest move we made in the last. Yeah, leading up to COVID was opening an office in Danny, mentioned one in London and one in Boston and all of those opportunities were just full tilt and March 15th happened. And, here we are.

Danny Rosen: [00:12:58] 

Yeah. And I guess I'll sort of take it from there.

Robert and I were talking about, you know, this, sort of what was, which was what Robert talked about,  which is right now. And I think the will be, and while we don't have a crystal ball, I mean, sort of give a little insight on to, into that as well. But, I, you know, at times right now, the is part of this question, Marshall, it's admittedly really challenging. 

I just, I think we would want to be honest and let people know that, we're struggling in a lot of ways at the same time. We're having some big wins as well. I think we're having those wins. We've had some of our largest orders in our history, during this time.

Some which are PPE related and some that are non-PPE related. So like many companies, we wonder how sustainable PPE is, and we're doing everything we can to triple down on non-PPE sales. Because we're not sure that will be sustainable. But we've also had these just, I would say too many goose egg sales days, along the way.

So it's just a rollercoaster of emotions and our sales numbers, as far as book numbers every day as we track it like that, it's just, an up and down kind of thing. Our margins have slipped. I think some of that is because we did really, we did the right thing in regards to offering some discounts on PPE and do the right thing as a company, early on, but interestingly year over year, we're in pretty good shape.

You know, we're well-capitalized. We had a really good first quarter, so we're not down that far year down that much year over year. But we're just not sure what the horizons look like for us. And, the rest of the industry. Robert mentioned employees and, you know, the 11-year average tenure, which I think we're most proud of.

I think we're also proud that today we haven't had any layoffs. You know, we've got a lot of people that are really counting on us and we're counting on them. So we're working really hard to try and do the right thing in regard to taking care of employees and trying to keep them, on the rocket ship, so to speak.

And they're just such a great group of people they're committed. And I think they're the ones that are gonna help us get through this. And then I think the last part of this is the will be, and, you know, I think re-imagining. 

What Brand Fuel will look like in the coming years. And we can touch on that a little bit later specifically, but...

No, we're trying to empower our teams to drive the change a bit, which helps with buy-in and how that works is, us asking them what they want to see out of the company, what their ideas are, what they think we should be and how we should sell this product. Once. You know, we get out of this and while we're in it as well.

So it stays bottom-up versus top-down approach, Robert mentioned before. And then the last thing I think we're, we're really relying on partnerships a lot more. I think when we got into the industry, I realized I'm a very territorial type of, industry and people were very protective of sales and who they were selling to their clients.

Yeah. One of the things that we all do on this call is we help with PromoKitchen and in leadership roles in the boardroom there, that organization is about uplifting the industry as a nonprofit. That's doing good for the industry by sharing best practices and Robert and I have had the good fortune to start another organization called Reciprocity Road, which is a buying collective of nine companies, $200 million in spend.

And also we are the United States representative for the International Partnerships for Premiums and Gifts, which has impact for short and those communities, PromoKitchen IPAC, Reciprocity Road, even PPAI and ASI. There are communities now where we can look to each other to help and grow our way out of this.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:16:47] 

I liked that a lot, and I'm a big proponent of the phrase. “The most human company wins” and it's just about seeing people and opportunities as a person.  Like a human level, instead of that corporate speak, you know what I'm saying?

Danny Rosen: [00:17:06] 

Truth, love it. Marshall.

Robert Fiveash: [00:17:09] 

On that note, you know, one of the things that we did, on the human level that I just wanted to mention, I think it's a good time to mention it.

We, I guess standing what, three or four years ago, when the tragic shooting in Vegas. When, when was that specifically? Was that three years ago?

Danny Rosen: [00:17:32] 

I think it was 2018 fall, 2018, maybe.

Robert Fiveash: [00:17:35] 

Okay. So maybe, maybe not quite three years ago, but, we, it really touched us in a lot of ways and, we wanted to do something with our team because they were traumatized by it as well.

It was, obviously at a concert at a music event and, just a tragic evening and we wanted to use apparel to kind of make a statement about that and how music is music can't be, uh, can't be taken off, it can't be put down. And,it certainly can't be silenced. And so we created something called the Band Fuel, rather than a Brand Fuel, but Band Fuel project.

And what we did was we had all of our athletics. I think, you know, Danny, how many us? There 25 or 30 folks at the time actually participated. We took short one, two-minute videos of our employees, and their favorite band tee and a t-shirt. And they described what the artist that was on the t-shirt meant to them.

And I will say it was one of the, probably the most meaningful things that I participated in at, at Brand Fuel. And I don't know how many, you know, these things, none of these things actually went viral or anything, but that wasn't the purpose. I mean, the purpose was for us to express, the power of music.

On our medium on t-shirts and it really, really was a fantastic project. And I would encourage anybody who might be interested in seeing how to pull something like this off, check out the Band Fuel project on our website.  Really, really was meaningful to all of us.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:19:23] 

I love that. I love that. And you know, t-shirts, I think really kind of dig into people's memories. And that's the reason why a lot of people get a shirt when they go to a concert or they order a shirt from the band's website is because they want to show that they're aligned with that emotional link to the music. And I really love that for all those reasons you suggested.

So that was great. 

All right, so let's pivot into my next question…  

Many typical customer challenges that you have had a history of solving might be changing. So what do you see as new areas of opportunity and what is driving that new success?

Robert Fiveash: [00:20:22] 

Gosh. Well, I think, you know, one of the biggest challenges that we've always had and it exists in pre-COVID and post-COVID, is the fact that a lot of the product, some of the products that we sell in this industry ends up in the landfill. 

And, I don't know if Danny is it Jamie Mera was the originator of “brandfill” but, so let's give him credit for that.

But, Marshall, “brandfill” obviously is the negative side of what we do that, a portion of what we sell ends up in the landfill. And I think, you know, as we move into an environment where clients potentially have less to spend because there's so much uncertainty out there, they are even more in tune with ROI and they're even more into with the fact that the product that we sell them, whether it's apparel or whether it's, hardgoods, it's got to last and it's got to be something that they know, put on and wear and bring eyeballs to the t-shirt or the polo shirt or whatever, whatever it might be. 

And so that is something that, is very important to us. And we've had a longstanding, I guess, somewhat tongue and cheek policy, that we, we will fire our employees, if they sell stress balls.

You know, that that is the prototypical product that will end up in a landfill or eaten by the dog or, you know, in the trash or what have you. And so that piece of it really isn't going away for us. It might morph a bit. But I think the fact that folks are on a limited budget post-COVID or pre-COVID, but it's something that's gonna stay with us, and we don't really have to pivot all that much on that.

It's always been something that's important to us. 

I think the other thing that sticks with us is the fact that we're, we're sort of seen as a challenger agency. So what I mean by that is, the discovery process that we go through with the client really isn't going to change, you know, pre-COVID. During COVID..

We're asking why during that discovery process, why do you want stress balls? 

Why do you want, you know, the piece of plastic that might end up in the landfill and oftentimes where convincing the client, that what they've chosen really doesn't fit. 

You know, it might be that that's what they ordered last time, or that might be what their, the person who was in the job before my order, that just wanted to do an easy reorder.

And it's our job, we feel to challenge that customer and make sure that they're brave in their decision. 

We've got a sort of a secondary tagline and mark, “Be Brave.” 

And what we mean by that is Be Brave in your choices. So I don't think that stuff is going to change all that much. We don't have to pivot a time when it comes to our principles in terms of how we sell. 

But I think Danny is going to get into a few things where we actually have pivoted pretty remarkably to some good success.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:23:32] 

Yeah. It's more about unlocking the results that somebody is after, not necessarily how to “logofy” something.

Danny Rosen: [00:23:41] 

Definitely. I think, yeah, you said it nicely and succinctly.

Yeah, that's great. I mean, there are other challenges though, too, on that note and, you know, we believe that connection kind of like you were talking about earlier, Marshall, the connection to a lot of brands is much harder without a human to human relationship. 

It's really tough to embolden a relationship in-person when you could conceivably kill someone through COVID, you know, it's a scary, freaking time for all of us.

And so, you know, we try to create solutions around that. So it's tripling down on the virtual world, you know, how do you create ways to enhance virtual engagement? 

I remember the first... Was it happy hour, Zoom, happy hours invited to, I was like, hell yeah! 

I made my drink. I got all excited, got my logo, drinkware.

And then, within three weeks I had been invited to more freaking social happy hours. 

I just, I was tired of him. It got exhausting. 

So now it's an opportunity for us to triple down in that world. And, and when all these Zooms are happening at these meetings, like we're doing now around virtual engagement, how do we connect with customers there?

How do we help our customers? 

Connect with their customers and their employees? 

And you got to just think about how do you do that before? How do you do it during, how do you do it after these events? And you can insert promotional products to get them to enjoy and be a part of the event during the event for engagement, you can give away promotional products after the event, you can thank them for being a part of it.

And it's the great connector and reminder of an experience or the brand, this thing that we sell, right? 

And that's one thing I think the other is realizing that home is the new domain, so creating products and services around that is something we've done a lot of, I think if we're honest also, budgets have been strained, not just for us, but for our clients.

And so the real question, I think this is what Robert is talking a little bit about to, you know, do we really have, and believe in the power of our medium? 

You know, are we confident enough that it can help staff be more productive? 

Do we really think promotional products and custom apparel can enhance the sales pipeline? 

Are we apologetic about what we're selling and focusing on price and we're not confident enough?

And I think the idea here is to do great work and you'll have a better chance of getting a share of budget or maybe even increasing budget. If you're confident in us, then you're thinking about that ROI you mentioned. 

And then the last point is, that I think we're all thinking about right now, is that for most companies, diversity is a real challenge.

And so as people begin to vote with their dollars with companies who focus on corporate social responsibility, companies that have a diverse supply chain, a diverse employee base, how they take care of those people, and offer sustainable products, you know, products that are meant to last, there's a real opportunity right there to step up and stand out and do the right thing.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:26:50] 

I love it. That's great. That's great.

All right, so let's wrap up with the last question and I think it's about the future, right? 

So I think many people would hit that fast forward button to get to January if we could. I know I would. So how do you guys see things working toward the end of 2020, and then heading into 2021?

What creative tools or thinking or planning are you guys doing right now? Between now and the end of the year and maybe Q1 of next year?

Robert Fiveash: [00:27:30] 

Perfect. Perfect. So Marshall, we, I guess about three weeks ago we had the idea of pulling in a moderator, to talk to our sales team about what Brand Fuel 2.0, might look like. 

So we were, concerned about the gap in sales and knew that this was not going to be quick. And we wanted to make sure that we could offer our sales team, additional tools or products or services or ideas that would allow them to, with our own individual market inside our business, try to help fill that gap.

So, sales were ten and they're five now, how do we get from five to 10? 

And so we brought in a moderator who spent probably an hour and a half with the entire team. And each salesperson was asked to bring five new ideas to the meeting. 

And it was a presumed meeting. And these were ideas that we might be able to monetize.

And, it ranges from augmenting an existing department or hiring a new graphic person or enhancing kitting, or whatever it might be or something completely sort of off the rails and different. 

And we got, I think, close to a hundred ideas and it really, really was a fascinating process and everybody took it seriously, which I think was very important to us. 

So we were happy about that. 

But, we went through that process, had people defend their top ideas. And probably tomorrow we will have little these things down to the top three ideas. And so essentially we took those hundred... Danny and I narrowed it down to five and then we had the team bet on the idea. 

So, you have to bet $20 bucks on your top one, $10 on the middle one, and $5 on your third-best one. That's sort of funny money. And, we've got that list now. And this is a list of that the team is invested in and they have a reason to be along with it.

And so, the timing of that was really, really good. I'm really glad we did it. I'm really glad people took it seriously, but we're just in the process now of showing the team this week what those top ideas were. 

And so I think we, timing-wise, we understood that this was going to be serious. And I think we did a good job of pulling in the folks and making them feel vested in sort of the recovery process.

I think some of the biggest things that we're looking at, in terms of the second half of the year: 

What does PPE look like? 

Danny mentioned it, you know, is that something that fades away? Is it something that, the big medical, hospital supply companies take over and we're left with the dregs?

Is it something that becomes much more creative, with design and our hope is that it will become something that is part of our toolkit.  And it's something that once the design factor, that once that element is part of it ends up being something that is a perfect fit for a company like us.

So we're excited about that. 

The other thing that's kind of cool is the online store piece that's always been key for us is really now essential. 

Danny mentioned work from home and there has to be a way to get these kits and these thank you’s to people working from home and the best way we have found for clients to do that is through a kitting our fulfillment project through our online stores.

And so that's a big piece of it as well. 

But again, the Brand Fuel 2.0 exercise, I think has set us on a path of discovery that we're going to see how it pans out for the next six months.

Danny Rosen: [00:31:42] 

Yeah. Let me add to that real quick. Robert had mentioned, cause I think this is so spot on.

He was talking about PPE and having it look pretty, it'd be more fashionable and functional. 

I think there's something there that may happen. And you know, you're starting to see this in certain cities, where it's becoming illegal, not to wear it and use it right now. And, who knows what will happen, but maybe that there's a little bit of a longer tail around that, but I love what he said about the fashion side of it.

I think there's going to be an erosion around just slapping a logo on a product. 

I think people who receive promotional products and custom apparel. I think they want the product, not the fat logo that's emblazoned on it. I mean, some brands, maybe you want that logo on there and it's sort of like the price you pay to get the freebie.

But I think there should be a shift from big logo branding to focusing on great design and messaging, you know, beautiful design on a product with a small logo or URL. Maybe your logo in the label or at the hip or something is going to be much better received and probably use, which makes the end recipient happier.

And I think that's what we're all looking for. And so I think there's that in my only other point about. 

Maybe I would add to Robert's great, you know, lists there of what's happening as we move into the future and promo and apparel. I mentioned it before. 

I think sustainability is going to be the new product safety.  

As an industry, I think PPAI did a phenomenal job focusing on that several years ago, but now I think it's all about sustainability.

I think it's time to educate our clients around sustainable products in our space. As Robert said, no more “brandfill”. 

Would you rather buy a pen that lasts for a couple of months for 99 cents or a pen that lasts for years for $2? 

And I think there's a conversation around that. 

Do you want the t-shirt that's gonna get tossed once I wear it the first time or, or it's there someone's favorite shirt and as if we can start to consider the lifetime value of products, and the fact that someone will want to wear something that's maybe more expensive and lasts longer and has stronger impressions for the end recipient as well as the person who gave it away?

I think there's some opportunity there, but wouldn’t it be cool if the suppliers sort of test products before they go to the marketplace and they put a lifetime value on them? 

You know, talk about a differentiator for them, but also for us as salespeople, I think it could drive margins and, and increase the number of impressions for brands ultimately.

So I think suppliers who are listening, think about the lifetime value of products.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:34:19] 

I think it all comes down to perspective, Danny. 

So, if a customer sees your corporation or your business or whatever, you guys have to be in alignment, it has to fit. So, is your customer the cheapest, absolute rock-bottom person in their whole market?

Well, then you're giving away their freebie crap that you see everywhere. 

But if you're not that person, if you're a higher value corporation, then the products that they're using for promotion, I think have to fit. 

Where you are in your industry and it has to be in alignment with what you normally do.

You can't just be the cheapest thing because you only have a $1.50 to spend, and that doesn't make any sense. And I think it needs to be more in alignment with the end result of how that customer is ultimately going to perceive you. And that's where we should be heading. 

And, making sure that the values kind of built into whatever their product did, apparel, whatever that we're trying to market

Danny Rosen: [00:35:33] 

well said.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:35:35] 

All right. Cool. 

Thank you both so much for your time today. It was fantastic learning how you've charted new success for Brand Fuel. So if a listener wants to learn more about what you do or how you can deliver success to them. What is the best way to contact you?

Danny Rosen: [00:35:56] 

Robert Fiveash.com

[00:36:00] Robert Fiveash: [00:36:02] Danny Rosen.org. Yeah...

Danny Rosen: [00:36:04] 

No, just get a brandfuel.com. You'll find info and marketing and Robert and I are both on the front lines of sales and business development. We love talking to customers and seeing what the problems and challenges are. 

So when you go to our website, although it's a big and beastly, we've got lots of employees and people working all over for us.

We are the frontline recipient to that info app, which is taxing, but awesome. 

But you'll find us and we're happy to chat with anybody who wants some input to help grow their business, or just wants to chat about, ways to improve this industry.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:36:39] 

Awesome. Great. Any last-minute words or thoughts?

Robert Fiveash: [00:36:43] 

No. Marshall. I just want to say thank you so much for the invitation to share.

Marshall Atkinson: [00:37:13] 

Awesome. All right. Hey, thanks. And we will catch you guys next time.